И снова о тестерах.

amkrei · Post by **amkrei** » 22 Mar 1999 17:37

По воле Хозяина тема "J-1 and H-1B (Silicon Valley)" была успешно прикрыта, но тем не менее люди продолжают прибывать и пытаются заработать себе на хлеб насущный. Поэтому вопрос, а не подскажет ли, уважаемая публика, где в р-не NY можно найти курсы, аналогичные Портновским для тестеров. Подскажите, не для себя стараюсь. Если лень сюда писать, черкните строчку нa е-mail.

[Сообщение редактировано - amkrei (22-03-99).]

Master · Post by **Master** » 23 Mar 1999 03:42

В Нью-Йорке есть с десяток русских курсов по тестированию. Они все маленькие и как-бы полу-легальные, незарегистрированные. Возьмите любую русскую газету, например, Русская Реклама, и там их много публикуется.

1.Позвоните и спросите не являются ли они филиалом какой-либо калифорнийской школы - это типичный прием жуликов в Нью-Йорке.
2. Дальше - пойдите посидите на уроке и поговорите с выпускниками. Если откажут в том или другом - все ясно.

Год с небольшим назад русское телевидение WMNB показало фильм о школе Портнова в Калифорнии. Через неделю в Нью-Йорке рекламировалось уже с десяток школ по QA. Многие объявили себя филиалами бог знает чего.

Большие well established школы отделений по тестированию пока не имеют, во всяком случае не рекламируют.

Katya · Post by **Katya** » 23 Mar 1999 06:42

Школа Портнова не имеет филиалов-это факт.

amkrei · Post by **amkrei** » 23 Mar 1999 16:25

to Master :
В том то и дело, что я хочу найти не полулегальные русские курсы, а нормальные с перспективой трудоустройства.

JU · Post by JU » 24 Mar 1999 01:38

Immeno po etomy chto bi ne oshibit'ca priezzhaite cuda v California v school Portnova. Eto proverennaia skola mnogimi i ochen' znamenitaia zdec'. Y menia mnogo znakomix kto cherez nee proshel i vce ochen' dovol'ni. I kino pro nix nedavno opiat' pokazivali. A v New Yorke deictvitel'no mnogo zhylikov potomy chto mnogo Rysskix a oni kak izvectno camie bol'shie pridymzhiki vcex ne legal'nix del.

Katya · Post by **Katya** » 24 Mar 1999 01:46

Справедливости ради надо заметить , что есть и такие люди,
кто закончил школу Портнова , но так и не смог устроиться
на работу. О таких я тоже слышала, да и Портнов этого не
скрывает.

JU · Post by JU » 24 Mar 1999 02:01

Da, no chasto vce zavicit ot cheloveka - zhelania i cpocobnoctei. A ecli etogo net, to yzhe nikto ne pomozhet. Ved' chasto cherez ety skoly ludi proxodat kotorie nikogda ran'she ne videli computer, i tem ne menee mnogie yctraivautca ycpeshno. Moim lichnim ybezhdeniem schitaetca chto lychshe normal'nogo Universitetskogo obrazovania ne bivaet (xotia mnogie ytverzhdaut obratnoe), tem ne menee dla bictrogo rezyl'tata takie schools help a lot.

amkrei · Post by **amkrei** » 24 Mar 1999 14:38

[img:53c245a1fe]http://www.privet.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img:53c245a1fe] Достали [img:53c245a1fe]http://www.privet.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img:53c245a1fe] вы меня, господа, со своим университетским образованием. У меня два диплома, но речь не о бо мне. Человек - женщина, имеющая околокомпьютерное образование и
2 детей 15 и 17 лет, без мужа, желает как-то устроиться в NY. Желает учиться, в свободное от добывания хлеба насущного время. Желательно на тестера.

[Сообщение редактировано - amkrei (24-03-99).]

Master · Post by **Master** » 24 Mar 1999 22:50

Попробуйте поговорить с живущим в Нью-Йорке Григорием Майзелштейном - это очень симпатичный и компетентный в школьном деле человекю Он одно время имел вполне приличную школу по NT Administration. Он и тестерами занимался, но их основной бизнес - это консалтинг. Школа их измотала и они, насколько я знаю, больше этим не занимаются.Попробуйте

718-232-0354. Если телефон устарел - используйте e-mail

Greg Mayzelshteyn
gm@incomweb.com
www.incomweb.com

Еще несколько соображений:
1. Для многих людей гораздо эффективнее заниматься с классным репетитором. Попросите того же Григория порекомендовать кого-то. Он знает много людей.
2. Рынок в Нью Йорке сильно отличается от Силиконовой Долины. Там поэтому школа тестировщиков просто не выживет - нет такого колоссального спроса. Зато есть спрос на другие вещи. И есть громадные солидные школы, которые уже по 20 лет в бизнесе. Может быть сначала определиться с профессией. Есть свои преимущества в том, чтобы стать тестером. Но если рынок поглощает громадные количества программистов на Visual Basic, так может проще с этим делом подразобраться, и с тем, что обычно в пакете - Access, ODBC. За пол-года можно очень прилично поднатореть. Да и школы приличные по этой части скорее всего (не обещаю, но предполагаю) найдутся. И стоить будет все удовольствие 3-4 тысячи.

PS А эта женщина, которая приезжает в Нью Йорк, - кто она по профессии и по образованию? И еще вопрос: а почему Вы для Вашей знакомой заинтересовались именно профессией тестера? Есть какие-то конкретные соображения или просто так сложилось?

[Сообщение редактировано - Master (24-03-99).]

amkrei · Post by **amkrei** » 24 Mar 1999 23:36

Master,
Большое спасибо за советы.
>PS А эта женщина, которая приезжает в Нью Йорк, - кто она по профессии и по образованию? - Уже здесь, профессия экономист, сметчик.
> И еще вопрос: а почему Вы для Вашей знакомой заинтересовались именно профессией тестера? - Это не я, а она, говорит программистом поздно, а тестеру и идеальный английский не нужен.

Спасибо.

MaxG · Post by **MaxG** » 26 Mar 1999 10:03

Очень бы хотелось узнать насколько тяжело учиться на QA и какие мозги нужны на это И еще по подробнее об QA.

Roman · Post by **Roman** » 26 Mar 1999 10:57

МаксуГ; Я не QA, но по рассказам знакомых QA, тяжело не в ученье, а в бою [img:302a55ce92]http://www.privet.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img:302a55ce92] Попробуй ка целый день тупо глядя в экран на все кнопки давить по строго определенной технологии? У некоторых даже нервный тик на этой почве... [img:302a55ce92]http://www.privet.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img:302a55ce92]

------------------
Роман Тумайкин

DP · Post by DP » 26 Mar 1999 16:02

Roman QA - QA rozn' - est i takie kotorie tol'ko tupo na knopki davut - est' i kotorie rabotatut s avtomatizirovannimi sistemami testirovania i etc, a eto IMHO - toje programmer/analyst po suti...

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DP

http://members.tripod.com/DeeePeee/H1B/ ... ation.html

amkrei · Post by **amkrei** » 26 Mar 1999 19:16

А есть такие, которые эти системы создают. А такое удовольствие, когда система должна идти в тираж, находится убогий баг, все на уши становятся, найти не могут, откуда ноги растут, и тут выходишь ты весь в белом - а вот-он-где жук сидит. На совещании тебе персональное спасибо - внимание. Так что асанизаторам програмисткого труда - бывает бОльшой почет. Все зависит - насколько крепко начальство по ушам получает, когда у заказчика это вылазит.

Master · Post by **Master** » 27 Mar 1999 06:25

MAXG: Это статья о тестировании из журнала Silicon India. Смотрите также www.stlabs.com www.sqe.com. Есть много ссылок на www.[...auto_moderated...]/links.html
============================================
OPPORTUNITY: - SOFTWARE QUALITY ASSURANCE
By Lawrence R. Hashб

They are emerging as one of the most important professionals in today's computer software industry and we still don't know exactly what to call them.

Whether they are known as Software Testers, Software Validation Technicians or Software Quality Assurance Engineers, one thing is for certain, "This profession is blossoming as we speak," according to Steve Devinney, Managing Director of the Quality Assurance Institute (QAI)
located in Orlando, Florida. "Software quality assurance has truly gone from a nice to have to a can't live without part of the software industry. It is mission critical; just as important as development and the SQA professionals are essential."

Devinney's view is shared by many in the computer industry, including K.Sridharan, Project manager for Intel's VTune project. Sridharan, who has been with Intel for seven years, describes software quality assurance as vital. "The Internet and user friendly platforms have
created a market demand for almost immediate product exposure," Sridharan explained, "Quality assurance and validation plays an extremely important role and that role is increasing."

Prior to 1993, software manufacturers enjoyed a different and more visceral relationship with their customer base. It was a time when there was a special kinship between those pioneering software development and distribution and those braving the new role as users. The relationship was simple - software producers would create products
and the users would test them and report back any bugs or defects they might have encountered while testing.

Most users were either computing professionals or enthusiasts who had already grown accustomed to the rapid changes occurring in the PC world. They were generally tolerant and patient about compatibility issues, bugs and glitches as ever faster and more powerful hardware hit
the market which in turn enabled newer and more promising software products to be developed. These users were willing and capable Beta testers and very much an intricate part of a new technology. But then things began to shift.

"The user base changed," according to Rob Arnold, Co-founder and Chairman of ST Labs, Inc. located in Bellevue, Washington. "As the volume of affordable user friendly software products increased, a new and rapidly expanding user base emerged." Unlike their predecessors,
the new user was less technically oriented and more consumer minded. No longer could the software industry rely upon their customers to participate as testers. What had once been a few hundred telephone calls to report bugs and to get fixes soon became thousands for product
support. "It was clear that the consumer wanted to be a user and not a tester. They were buying packaged product and were expecting stability and overall reliability. They were demanding more complex products in shorter periods of time," Arnold said.

As the software industry matured it became big business in the corporate world. "A single high profile failure or bug can have devastating consequences on a company," Arnold said citing such cases as the Intel Pentium floating point problem discovered in October 1994 and
the software glitch that left the European Space Agency's Ariane 5 rocket scattered across the swamps of French Guiana on June 4 1996. "The market is extremely sensitive to high profile bugs."

Market demands and growing competition has forced software organizations to internalize the testing process. Software Test Engineers are being employed in record numbers. "There are not enough software quality assurance professionals. The demand is greater than the supply," said Paul Burrowes, Co-Founder and Vice President of Westech Expo Corporation. Computer software quality assurance vocations will be amongst the fastest growing occupations through the year 2005, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Occupational Outlook Handbook.
Rob Arnold, who's company employs two hundred SQA professionals to do software testing for companies like Hewlett Packard, Intel, and Microsoft said, "We are seeing as many as four testers to every one developer in organizations like NASA. One-to-one ratios are growing
more common, even in packaged software companies."

The SQA Professional
SQA is a component of a larger team consisting of sales, marketing, and development, according to Arnold. "Software Quality Assurance testers come to the profession from many different backgrounds and cultures. We
have testers with backgrounds in the arts, psychology, business, information technology, and even auto mechanics and certainly some from the computer sciences. But each of these professionals bring life experience and excellent communication, analytical, and problem solving skills with them. Objectivity is crucial in this world where it is the responsibility of the tester to provide the best possible advice and information so all the stakeholders can make the best informed decisions."

Education
According to the 1996 Survey Results On Software Testing published by the Quality Assurance Institute, eighty-six percent of those responding have a degree. 50% have a Bachelors degree, 18% have an Associates degree, 17% have a Masters degree and 1% have a Doctorate. The remaining 14% of SQA professionals polled are high school graduates.

Rob Arnold shares Steve Devinney's opinion that the ideal tester is one who has a good mix of life experience and vocational training in software testing. The combination of existing skills and life experience, along with training in software testing methodologies, makes for an ideal tester."

Mikhail Portnov knows exactly what Devinney and Arnold mean. "SQA is the perfect place for those who seek a career in computers but who have college degrees and experience in other fields." Portnov, the President
and founder of Portnov Computer School in Mountain View, California, has been teaching software quality assurance, primarily to Russians, for three years. "The demand for SQA Engineers has tripled within the last year and we are working long and hard to provided the industry with
qualified professionals," Portnov said.

A niche for the immigrant?
Portnov, who came to the United States six years ago from the former Soviet Union, describes SQA as an ideal niche for many immigrants. "I know there are many similarities amongst the Russian immigrants and those from other countries such as India. Especially when it comes to
our strong educational backgrounds, math and science in particular, and our professional attitude and ethics, hard work and devotion to quality." Portnov appeared proud when he described the Silicon Valley SQA market as being dominated by Russians. Then adds, "Actually, I feel
the Indian student may have some advantage over the Russian student because of their familiarity with the English language."

Success Stories
"One of our students," Portnov explained, "is a 58 year old man who had spent his entire working life as a mechanical engineer in the Soviet Union. Today, after completing our program, he is working for AutoDesk
testing AutoCad. His experience in mechanical engineering proved to be more important than a degree in computer science." Igor Likhatchev, age 38, came to the United States in May of 1996. It was apparent to him that his BS degree from the Engineering and Physics University in Moscow was not enough to get him a job in the computer industry. After researching the many vocational schools in Silicon Valley and San Francisco, Likhatchev decided to enrolled in the Portnov program. "After being in the program for only two months I was accepted as an
intern at Next Software. I continued in the program for the remaining two months and was then accepted by Next as a contractor. After Apple bought Next Software, I was hired as a full-time employee. Portnov Computer School was the first step on my way to success here in
America," Likhatchev said.

"By far the hottest backgrounds for SQA are in finance, accounting, and bookkeeping. But I've seen a lot of success for my immigrant students who were once musicians, teachers, mathematicians, chemists, and civil and mechanical engineers," Portnov said.

Earnings
"As the industry has matured salaries have leap frogged," according to Devinney. "In the early 1990s testers were paid much like technical support people. We saw hourly pay rates between $8 and $12. Now, SQA professionals are experiencing compensation more inline with developers.
Annual incomes for SQA professionals and testers range from the low 30s (thousands of dollars) to the high 80s plus."

The 1996 Survey Results On Software Testing published by the Quality Assurance Institute reports annual salaries ranging from $29,000 to $100,000 with almost half of the responses in the $40,000 to $59,000 range. According to the survey, the average annual salary for software
testers in 1996 was $52,378. Approximately 85% of those responding had received salary increases ranging from .5% to 35% in the twelve months immediately preceding the survey. "The trend is growth. Annual salary
increases in SQA well exceed the national average of approximately 7% for the software industry generally," Arnold said.

While there appears to be a direct correlation between earnings and the years of work experience, management and non-management roles do not seem to be a determining factor, according to the Quality Assurance
Institute's survey report. Of those in management, 41% had 30 years or more experience, 52% had between 20 and 29 years experience, 62% had between 10 and 19 years experience, and 25% had less than ten years experience.