Исчезли деньги с 401К

Shin · Post by **Shin** » 21 Feb 2002 22:05

Тут у моей знакомой возникла проблема:
она отработала энное количество времени на контору, которая открыла ей 401К счет и отчисляла/матчила туда деньги, затем знакомая уволилась, с год не обращалась к этому счету, при этом не работала, а когда решила проверить, то оказалось, что там 0.
А лежала приличная сумма.
Возникает естественный вопрос: что стало с деньгами. В контору звонить категорически не хочется, онлайновый пароль забыт напрочь, предполагается все-таки дозвониться до живого человека в фонде и узнать историю, но хотелось бы знать общее направление поиска.

Kate · Post by **Kate** » 21 Feb 2002 22:18

Shin,
I don't know for sure but in my previous company 401K contributions had to be rolled over to an IRA if the amount was less than $5,000 within a year after the resignation. I did that and I am not sure what would have happened if I didn't. Call the plan administrator. Usually they have nothing to do with the company itself.

On the other note, we are moving to Minnesota for sure around late June/beginning of July. Hope to see you there !

sergeibob · Post by **sergeibob** » 21 Feb 2002 22:21

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Shin:
Тут у моей знакомой возникла проблема:
она отработала энное количество времени на контору, которая открыла ей 401К счет и отчисляла/матчила туда деньги, затем знакомая уволилась, с год не обращалась к этому счету, при этом не работала, а когда решила проверить, то оказалось, что там 0.
А лежала приличная сумма.
Возникает естественный вопрос: что стало с деньгами. В контору звонить категорически не хочется, онлайновый пароль забыт напрочь, предполагается все-таки дозвониться до живого человека в фонде и узнать историю, но хотелось бы знать общее направление поиска.<hr></blockquote>

Sometimes the company changes 401K provider
and moves all the money to a different place.
For example, my co moved my 401K from Fidelity
to Aetna, it still shows my account at Fidelity with $0 balance.
They should have mailed her some information
about it of course, but in the case if she changed
address, etc, it could have been lost somehow.

Вася · Post by **Вася** » 21 Feb 2002 23:35

Ваша знакомая не Enron случайно работала? [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Если серьезно, то многие 401-е счета потеряли кучу денег. Может так получилось что ваша знакомая все потеряла? [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img]

Escaper · Post by **Escaper** » 22 Feb 2002 00:05

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Kate:
I don't know for sure but in my previous company 401K contributions had to be rolled over to an IRA if the amount was less than $5,000 within a year after the resignation. I did that and...<hr></blockquote>

You did what?

PostoronnimV · Post by **PostoronnimV** » 22 Feb 2002 07:37

It is not necessary to roll 401K money over into IRA when you leave the company sponsoring the plan. The legislation is set such that the company sponsoring the plan *does not own the accounts*. The accounts are owned by a plan administrator, which is normally a huge financial services provider, called "Plan custodian" or "Plan administrator" ( Vanguard, Fidelity, Morgan Stanley, take your pick ).
Your 401K is as good as the Custodial accounts are. For example, people whose plans are vested in Vanguard mutual funds did not lose anything or lost very little even in the ongoing market crisis (although their accounts are not growing either). For example, a friend of my friend rolled his former 401K over into a Vanguard IRA and he is reasonably happy, and his wife, when resigning from her employer, left her 401K money untouched in the same Fidelity account, and she is also reasonably happy. On the other hand, outfits such as Enron and huge telecomms encouraged their employees to invest in own stock and those people got hit hard, whether or not they changed jobs or whether or not their accounts were managed by reputable providers.
But if you don't think your 401K was all vested into junk stocks, then the algorithm should be:
- find your last known good 401K statement showing credible balance;
- the name, phone number and address of the account *Custodian* should be shown clearly there along with your SSN or ITIN;
- call the Custodial provider and ask, plan and simple, what the f--k happend to your account;
- you may not be able to get an immediate answer:
if you moved a couple of times they may have to send you first an address change package and may require a notarized affidavit that you are you, but in a couple of weeks you should be able to reestablish communication and get a disclosure of some sort.
You are not retiring in two weeks , are you?

Kate · Post by **Kate** » 25 Feb 2002 19:48

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Escaper:


You did what?<hr></blockquote>

I rolled over my 401K into Vanguard IRA since the total contributions on my 401K account were less than $5,000.

PostoronnimV,
as I have mentioned above, my former employer (Fleet Bank) required all 401k accounts less than $5,000 to be rolled over to an IRA account within a year after the resignation. If the account contained more than $5,000 it didn't have to be rolled over. The good thing is that later I was able to roll over that IRA account into my current 401K plan.

PostoronnimV · Post by **PostoronnimV** » 02 Mar 2002 01:32

> my former employer (Fleet Bank) required all 401k accounts less than $5,000 to be rolled over > to an IRA account within a year after the resignation.

My first reaction to this - your employer requirement was blatantly unlawful. They are not supposed to have jusrisdiction over your 401K account, unless they were themselves custodial authority for that, which, I believe, is also illegal.

But my second thought is this: so let's assume they had grounds to ask you to roll over and you didn't, now what? It's your money, it belongs to you, you are the owner. They cannot just pocket it, because that thar would be criminal offence now - not just administrative code violation.
So theoretically, the worst of the worst what may legally happen is the forced liquidation of your account with the *full* balance going out to you in cash.
Why is this bad? For two reasons:
1) you will have to pay a 10% premature withdrawal penalty to IRS;
2) in this bear market you will take loss on many stocks you own there.

No.1 is just bad bad, No. 2 could work both ways.
Imagine the joy of a former Enron employee, whose 401K has been forcibly liquidated last June (should I sey more ? 8-))

Anyway, and I say again, whether you did anything to your x401K or not, the money is yours, it cannot *just dissappear* (except for market devaluation). If it appears that your x401K is completely gone, there is a crime and criminal(s) behind it.

Sasha K · Post by **Sasha K** » 02 Mar 2002 07:47

Не хочу никого пугать без нужды, но... В одной из компаний, в которой я когда-то работал, у меня оствавлся 401-К меньше 5К. Естественно, его managed кто-то из Dig League, кажется Wachovia. В какой-то момент они меня известили, что я должен эти денежки забрать. Мне этим заниматься было лень и я их проигнорировал. Через некоторое время они мне прислали чек, за вычетом 28% нелога +10% fee за early withrdawal. Тут уж мне ничего не осталось делать, как открыть IRA и положить эти денежки туда. Случилось всё это где-то в феврале, так что налоги я вернул очень быстро. А боюсь я того, что если героиня топика перехала и не известила Fund Manager о переремене адреса, то они ей послали денежки по старому адресу и их кто-то уже оприходовал.
А с ПостороннимВ я полностью согласен. И вообше, тщательнее надо быть со своими деньгами.

PostoronnimV · Post by **PostoronnimV** » 03 Mar 2002 07:06

If the account has been liquidated and the money went to the old address and someone cashed the check, this would be bad, but not necessarily hopeless. One could in principle roll this back, because the check was not signed by the individual it has been made out to.
But we are drowing in "what-ifs" here.

There is a straight and relatively simple procedure: start tracking the money using the last known good account statement. Whoever liquidated the account should be able to tell precisely where the money went. If the check went to the old address, it is not necessarily misappropriated, more likely it was lost or trashed. In this case the check writer should be able to reconfirm that the check was not cashed, and should be able to stop and reissue the check. That'd be $20 stop change, maam (plus of course the 10% premature withdrawal penalty, that's pretty darn irrecovarable - next time send 10% or your saving to starving children of Haiti or something...)

Sasha K · Post by **Sasha K** » 03 Mar 2002 07:15

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PostoronnimV:
(plus of course the 10% premature withdrawal penalty, that's pretty darn irrecovarable - next time send 10% or your saving to starving children of Haiti or something...)<hr /></blockquote>This is not necessarily true. If money within 60 days is rolled into a different 401K plan or into IRA account THERE IS NO PENALTY and no income tax paid. Since money has not been received by the recipient so far it may still qualify as a rollover. Whether it is true or not is up to tax adviser. If I were in that situation, I'd claim it as a rollover and recover all tax and penalty paid. If IRS tells me otherwise, I’d say "oops" and pay then.

dolce · Post by **dolce** » 05 Mar 2002 06:01

Так нужны все-таки дамочке деньги или нет? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

Не могут они исчезнуть..все что надо сделать- позвонить HR или тому, кто отвечает за бенефиты.

Sasha K · Post by **Sasha K** » 05 Mar 2002 06:39

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dolce:
Так нужны все-таки дамочке деньги или нет? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

<hr /></blockquote>А вот этого мы можем никогда не узнать. Довольно часто кто-нибудь задает вопрос, народ дает всяческую информацию, а автор топика действует по принципу " Ни мне здрасте, ни тебе спасибо" (с).

Shin · Post by **Shin** » 05 Mar 2002 17:01

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sasha K:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dolce:
Так нужны все-таки дамочке деньги или нет? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

<hr /></blockquote>А вот этого мы можем никогда не узнать. Довольно часто кто-нибудь задает вопрос, народ дает всяческую информацию, а автор топика действует по принципу " Ни мне здрасте, ни тебе спасибо" (с).<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
Спасибо всем ответившим. Я ждал развития ситуации.
И она получилась очень странной.
"Дамочка" трясла фонд по телефону, ей сказали что по счету не было никаких транзакций. Стейтментов она тоже не получала. При этом ранее (пока работала) она в онлайне заходила на свой счет и своими глазами видела там сумму порядка 4К. Если учесть, что в той конторе она проработала чуть больше полугода, то напрашивается один вывод - она видела чужой аккаунт. Как это могло получиться, не можем понять.
В явном виде она не просила компанию клась деньги на 401К, в пэйчеках тоже вычетов не появлялось.
Так что, думаю, "исчезло" то, чего и не было, а был глюк софта.

PostoronnimV · Post by **PostoronnimV** » 06 Mar 2002 09:14

Once a friend of my friend (Ms. A) was debugging something with a friend of hers (Mr. B).
Mr.B was desperate to access a private resource over the network. So he responded to login challenge posted by Internet Explorer with his password from Ms.A's computer. After that for quite a while, when Ms. A browsed corporate intranet, some sites, including Human Resources, mistook her for Mr. B. Once she stumbled into his paystub and for a few seconds thought she has gotten a handsome salary raise 8-( until she realized what actually happened...
After that she murdered the IE cache and the problem went away.
She claims this is a true story.
So it is entirely possible to blunder into someone else's account it your caches are messed up.

Kate · Post by **Kate** » 06 Mar 2002 09:59

Слушайте, у дамы ничего не вычитали из paycheck'a, а потом она изумляется, куда деньги делись? Америка, конечно, страна чудес, но не до такой же степени...
Многие компании вообще не открывают 401К раньше чем через год после начала работы.